How much is too much?

[Ham4CW]

Hey all!

After recent discussions about Morse Keys, and how much we had paid, it got me thinking. Is there any limit on how much you would pay for a Morse key?

Some keys are ten a penny, but as we go up the scale of rarity and provenance the costs involved in obtaining that 'special' key seem to take off like a rocket!

So yeah, I am curious to see how other members set their limit, or do you have no limit if the 'right key' comes along?

73, Mark...

 

[foggycoder]

I'm a man of many hobbies and (now I'm retired) very limited resources.

Yes, I wish I'd put more aside into my retirement fund, but it was a trade-off between saving and doing/having stuff while I was still able to. I've had a lot of great toys over the years so I have no complaints. It's just that there's less money for toys now (which was the plan all along).

When you have an income, it's easy to allocate money for toys on the basis of the period of time it'll take you to save up for it or pay it off if you've had it on credit. But once you have a fixed pool of money to last your autumn years, you know that whatever you spend is never going to be replaced. I've calculated that (at the current rate) I'll run out of money when I'm 92. But that doesn't take into account contingencies or care needs, and assumes the current rate of government pension, both of which are unpredictable. So it's likely to be earlier. The more toys I have now, the earlier it'll be.

To get to the point of the thread, any purchase has to be subjected to the test of time - I wait a couple of months. This reduces impulse purchases and "buyer's remorse". It also gives the chance for a toy from another hobby to come along and compete for attention (either/or but not both). If I still want it after a couple of months, I ask myself the question "If I bought this, what would I not be able to buy for the same money?". I did this with the KN4YB right-angle bug (see the thread "Bug Keys - buying second-hand") but am now being distracted by the QSK llc, TP-1. See what I mean?

It also depends on whether I've been buying lots of small toys. If so, its harder to justify a big purchase.

After all that, it's a wonder I buy anything! And it's the reason why I'm not a key collector - I'm having to learn to admire the keys I see on here without wanting to possess one.

 

[foggycoder]

To put some numbers on my previous post, I have 5 keys, the most expensive of which was the Porta-Paddle 2 at £85.

Both the KN4YB right-angle bug and the QSK llc, TP-1 are each about £180-190 delivered. But I think it unlikely I'd splash out that sort of money on a morse key - if I had that money today, I'd be more likely to upgrade the brakes on my bicycle (safety) and get a cheap inflatable kayak (adventure).

 

[MI0PYN]

I tend to be impulsive and will at times pay over the odds for something and repent at leisure. However, once I go over a certain amount of money, pragmatism does rear it's head and I force myself to wait for the first flush of wanting it to pass. Then I can start to think whether I'd use it, or whether it's better than what I already have, or whether I could hide it from the wife or whatever.

With keys, I have a solid straight key and a combined key/paddle, both from Kent. I'll only ever use these in the shack, and having these, I can't really justify to myself getting anything else, especially as I like these keys. The Kent Two will always remind me of the generosity and gentlemanliness of a fellow ham, and as a result, I don't feel the need to own any other shack keys at the moment.

In terms of portable keys, I have the little Belgian military straight key which I like and the Chinese paddles which I don't like ever so much but which are ok. The only thing I'd like to get is a set of paddles to use portable, and I really wanted a set of Palm Pico paddles but as that's not going to happen, I'm happy to wait. I can always dream of the Begali Traveller, the only Begali key I've actually wanted to own. I'm in no hurry though, as that is so much money to spend, I'll think very carefully indeed before dropping that sort of cash.

 

[GM0WEZ]

I believe the psychologists have shown that you get greater happiness by spending cash on experiences rather than things. But of course some things (like inflatable kayaks) lead to experiences so it's not that simple.

I do a bit of deer stalking and years ago was discussing binoculars with a professional stalker. You can of course spend anything from £50 for an used pair of East German Zeiss 8x30s, to over £2700 for the latest Swarovski with built in rangefinder. At the time my own binos were towards the lower end of that range, and the professional stalker said that paying for decent binos hurts once, but after that every time you look through them you find yourself thinking 'these are good'. He was right, and although my current modern Zeiss binos cost me an arm and a leg, I use them so much it was well worth it. I think they'll last me the rest of my life too.

It's also instructive to note that like many deer stalkers, my binos cost twice as much as my telescopic sight, and the telescopic sight cost twice as much as the rifle it's mounted on. The reason is you use the binos for hours, the scope for a few minutes, and the rifle for about 30 seconds. Also spending more money on binos gets you more performance - this ain't necessarily true for rifles. I guess most of us would do better spending more time and money on the antenna than on the less critical parts of the station???

Key collecting is not expensive if you compare it to, say collecting Japanese swords or Ferraris. Also we can use keys for their intended purpose on the air, which keeps their history and heritage alive. I think that's worth doing. Can't do that with samurai swords , and although you can drive a Ferrari, you can't drive it in a way that actually uses its performance. And my cheapo Dacia (from that centre of car making excellence, Romania...) gets you from A to B just as well.

So I don't know. I once got a lot of pleasure fixing up an old Heathkit HW8, which let's  face it, is not exactly high performance,. But they have a lovely retro look and the satisfaction of repair made it worth it. I guess I was buying  an experience not a thing?

 

[foggycoder]

...the professional stalker said that paying for decent binos hurts once, but after that every time you look through them you find yourself thinking 'these are good'. He was right, and although my current modern Zeiss binos cost me an arm and a leg, I use them so much it was well worth it.

Maybe it's a binos thing - many years ago I splashed out on an expensive (for me) pair of image stabiliser Cannon 10x30s. I use them all the time and every time I do, I think 'these are good'. They've given me terrific pleasure over the years.
I do some sort of morse code every day, so maybe I should regard a good morse key in the same light. But does 'expensive' = 'good'...?

"...my cheapo Dacia ... gets you from A to B just as well (as a Ferrari)."
Ah, but it doesn't though. It certainly gets you from A to B but the whole point of paying the extra for the Ferrari is that it goes from A to B so much better (depending, of course, on your definiton of 'better'). Then there is the whole 'Pride of Ownership' thing with a Ferrari that you don't get with a Dacia. And what about kudos amongst your peers?

 

[GM0WEZ]

Funny you mention that, as my dad also has a pair of Canon IS 10x30 binoculars, and I tried them head to head against my Zeiss 8x42 Victory FLs, reading newsprint at different distances.

In good light without a rest, the Canon actually outperformed the Zeiss (which costs maybe 4 or 5 x more), due to the better magnification and image stabilisation. Using the Zeiss supported, the Zeiss had a very slight edge but not much in it. Of course in poor light the bigger lenses and very high light transmission of the Zeiss wins out. But it made me think that for everyday use in daylight, the Canons are great kit.

 

[foggycoder]

Not going off-topic here - bear with me...

In the past I've had some professional contact with Scottish deer-stalking activities and the Swarovski binoculars seem essential accessories for anyone wearing tweeds. Eye-wateringly expensive. I had a look through a pair once - they seemed good but I didn't have a chance to evaluate them properly.

I wonder to what extent cultural norms within a hobby (and I'm thinking both deer-stalking and morse code here) determine "how much is too much?". For instance, it is clearly quite normal for the owners and clients of deer-stalking estates to spend £1400 on a pair of binoculars which give them the best chance of spotting their target. There are some expensive morse keys out there which presumably have a market amongst CW operators. We could really do with an opinion from a forum member who feels that those keys are worth spending the money on. Would someone care to chip in and tell us about the high level keys?

 

[Ham4CW]

...There are some expensive morse keys out there which presumably have a market amongst CW operators. We could really do with an opinion from a forum member who feels that those keys are worth spending the money on. Would someone care to chip in and tell us about the high level keys?

I would say, speaking as an "high level key" owner, that there are maybe six things that determine the price of a 'high level' key.

1) Is the key rare
2) Is the key of historical interest
3) Is the key precision made from the finest quality materials
4) Does the key have some exceptional 'feel' such that your operating ease and comfort is taken to a whole new level
5) Is it a 'must have' key for any collector
6) How many other operators are also on the hunt for one

So, at the low end of the scale, a naff key that is really common and hard work to use would not be considered 'high level', and as such prices are just a few pounds (dollars).

As the keys become better made, using better materials the price will start to increase, but not always by that much.

But, then we get to the rare as Unicorn poop, one touch and you hear a choir of angels keys! Instant big money time!

However, a 'high level' key may not always fit in with the above six points. It may be a key that is very well made, from good materials and to a high standard, and it may even be on the rare side, but it could be total rubbish in use. However, because it is considered a 'must have' key you might still buy one, just for collectings sake.

A real high level key for me is just one that looks good (though not necessarily), maybe has some historical background (though not necessarily), but is a real joy to use and for some reason you can never put your finger on, it will making sending so easy and you just never seem to make a mistake or have to fight with it.

A couple of examples. I have a Marconi 365 key, which is considered a 'must have' key by collectors. It looks OK, is well made, but I hate to use it because it feels and sounds horrible (to me) when in use. Collectable, yes, usable, no (not by me anyhow).

Another key I bought a while ago is a Begali Signature Palladium paddle key. I have a few paddles of various makes I've acquired over the years, and this Begali one was purchased (second hand), simply because I didn't have a Begali paddle key and I thought it looked OK. When I tried it out I was amazed! I have tinkered with paddle keys over the years and they have all been much of a muchness. As soon as I started to use the Begali the feel of it was on another level. I found that I could send maybe several words per minute faster with the Begali, and it seemed no great effort to do so. I just sat there muttering "Wow" every so often, it was such a fantastic key to use. It was a definite "choir of angels" moment! bd

The downside though is that when you go from using a key like that and try to go back to using all the other paddle keys I have, they just no longer feel as good and you find yourself constantly comparing them all to the Begali.

Most of the guys that have Begali paddle keys probably purchased them as a must have key, I had mine because I though it would fill a gap in a collection and for no other reason, but it turned out to be the best paddle ever (so far!).

Going back to your comments Ross I would say that maybe sometimes it is just snob value that drives the market with a lot of items, not only keys and binoculars. Some folks just have to have the latest, biggest, newest, most bad ass thingymabob they can lay their hands on simply to win the next round of of the 'willy waving' competition with their mates.

There is a very old saying, that was actually I believe to do with educational snobbery, but paraphrased it works here too. "A fine key is like a fine pocket watch, it should be taken out only in order to use it, not continuously tapped in order to prove you have one!"

73, Mark...

 

[foggycoder]

Ham4CW
Great eye-opener into the world of 'high level keys' - thanks for that.

I wonder if forum member AE0Q would also be willing to say something on 'high level keys'. He has a Begali Traveller and I rather suspect he has some other great keys in his collection. I wonder what inspired him to obtain them, and how he feels about them now...

 

[gm5bkc]

Nooo, I've never had any really collectible keys.  In the 90's I had 4 various Vibroplex keyer paddles and an old Nye Viking hand key from the 60's, but then I got my Jones Key PK-200 and sold all the Vibroplex

I now just have the Jones Key, Begali Traveler and Begali Sculpture paddles.

I love to look at pictures of old key collections, though, it's great to admire the ingenuity of key builders !

Glenn AE0Q

 

[GM0WEZ]

The rarity issue certainly affects value - the Marconi AS300 (made for Trinity House lighthouses) and the Marconi PS213 (made for coastal radio stations) are essentially the same key, but the former is much rarer and commands a price premium. Likewise the J-36 bugs differ in value with the rarer Bunnell version going for more. (Some say the Lionel one is the best in terms of feel though).

History certainly affects value. Imagine if the Titanic's key, that sent the distress calls on the night of the sinking, was recovered. You could name your price.

'Professional' keys - used by professional ROs sending a lot of traffic, usually are good to use and robust. But the Amplidan and the GNT both fall in this category, with a 10 x price difference.

Military keys are mass produced so generally less rare. They might be worth more if they had proven provenance. For example, the PRC316 radio, with it's built in key, was used by the SAS to summon help at the battle of Mirbat. An ordinary PRC316 is valuable (due to rarity, special forces connection and attractive compactness) but if you had the actual Mirbat one, with proof... again you could name your price.

 

[Ham4CW]

Nooo, I've never had any really collectible keys.  In the 90's I had 4 various Vibroplex keyer paddles and an old Nye Viking hand key from the 60's, but then I got my Jones Key PK-200 and sold all the Vibroplex

I now just have the Jones Key, Begali Traveler and Begali Sculpture paddles.

I love to look at pictures of old key collections, though, it's great to admire the ingenuity of key builders !

Glenn AE0Q

A silly question, but why do you think it is that Vibroplex keys (the bug ones), are so popular in the States? Whenever I see photographs of US op's shacks they always seem to have a Vibroplex Bug on the desk.

Is it just because they are made in the US, or is it for some other reason. I kind of had the feeling that it was traditional to have one.

There are a few kicking about over here, but they seem nowhere near as popular as State-side. I get the feeling that they are viewed almost with suspicion by some UK op's.  ;D

Something that amused me about preferences here was that years ago you HAD to use a straight key when taking a Morse test in the UK. After that it was up to the individual to choose. So op's were always saying that it was unfair that they had to use the 'slower' straight keys and couldn't wait to go out and obtain a paddle key and start blasting away at 40wpm.

But now that a Morse test is no longer required and operators can teach themselves and use whatever key they like, the vast majority are actually choosing to buy straight keys, and there seems to be almost a cult developing to obtain the oldest and most expensive(!) straight keys! :-*

Funny old world :

73, Mark...

 

[GM0WEZ]

When I did my morse test at Bletchley (this was when RSGB had the contract for amateur morse tests) I was given a wood based Kent straight key to do the sending test on. Contrary to rumours that the morse test keys were rusty and sloppy, it was excellent (as Kents typically are).

A few years previously the tests were done by the GPO/coastal stations. I wonder what key was offered then, or if candidates just brought their own.

I too have wondered why bugs are popular in the US and rare in the UK. I guess it might be a hangover from landline telegraphy? As you say most are made in the US but I don't think that explains why they are rare this side of the pond. I have a few American made 'Crescent' tools and once had an American made rifle and the quality of both is very high. Pricing might have had something to do with it - I recall new Vibroplexes were very expensive in the UK, and with so few on the second hand market, probably many ops never actually tried one.

O

 

[gm5bkc]

A silly question, but why do you think it is that Vibroplex keys (the bug ones), are so popular in the States? Whenever I see photographs of US op's shacks they always seem to have a Vibroplex Bug on the desk.

Is it just because they are made in the US, or is it for some other reason. I kind of had the feeling that it was traditional to have one.

There are a few kicking about over here, but they seem nowhere near as popular as State-side. I get the feeling that they are viewed almost with suspicion by some UK op's.  ;D

I think there are just so many Vibroplex keys (paddles and bugs) in the US that everyone gets one at first.  I got a Vibroplex bug in 1968 just after getting my Novice license, then wired it for as a paddle when I got a home-made tubetype keyer at a swap meet a few months later.  The bug wasn't collectible back then, just a nice one to have.  I sold it after I made squeeze paddles from two cheap straight keys bolted back to back.

Something that amused me about preferences here was that years ago you HAD to use a straight key when taking a Morse test in the UK. After that it was up to the individual to choose. So op's were always saying that it was unfair that they had to use the 'slower' straight keys and couldn't wait to go out and obtain a paddle key and start blasting away at 40wpm.

But now that a Morse test is no longer required and operators can teach themselves and use whatever key they like, the vast majority are actually choosing to buy straight keys, and there seems to be almost a cult developing to obtain the oldest and most expensive(!) straight keys! :-*

Before the 80's in the US you had to take the General (13 wpm) and Extra (20 wpm) CW receiving AND sending tests (and written test, too) at an FCC government office, usually in a big city.  They always had a hand key bolted to a table, but you could use your own key or keyer if it ran on batteries.  I took my General tests in St Paul, Minnesota when I was still in school, and in 1972 took the Extra Class tests in San Francisco where I was going to Electronics Tech school in the Navy.

After copying the 20 wpm message solid for 5 minutes it was my turn to send for the Examiner, and really crusty old guy.  You could tell he wasn't happy about a few of us guys under 20 yrs old that were taking the Extra tests.  You had to have a General or Advanced license for 2 years as a requirement for the Extra.
When it was my turn to send I was worried about sending 20 wpm with the hand key, so I chickened out and borrowed an electronic keyer that another guy had brought.  But it was a single-paddle keyer, the paddle built into the keyer box, and I couldn't send worth crap with it.  I kept dropping dots at the end of letters, I was used to my iambic paddles and keyer !  The old examiner got mad, SLAMMED his fist on the table and yelled at me "put that damn thing away and send with the key on the table or I'll fail you !!".  Man, I was embarrassed, a room full of guys taking tests  (they always gave the Extra CW tests first) :-(  So I sent 20 wpm for him with the hand key and passed..  But my first thought was "I can't believe I'm going to fail the Extra for SENDING" which would have been really stupid..

I have to say I really don't get the current trend to collect (and use) straight keys.  I love using a keyer and nice paddles to send CW fairly effortlessly, it's a lot of work without them

Glenn AE0Q

 

[Ham4CW]

Love the story about your test, especially being told to put the keyer away! )

The place where I took my Morse test was a local(ish) radio club. It was an odd venue though, the building used to be some kind of electricity sub transformer/control building, so there were no windows in it. The whole place was full of 'donated'  radio equipment, which lined the walls of most of the rooms.

The room where I took the test had one old table in the middle of it, and was illuminated from overhead by one light bulb in what looked like some WW2 Chinese coolie hat lampshade. The walls were painted brick, lined with old military radios. It was a surreal scene, me sitting there, with an old Morse key, tapping away nervously as I sent the text from a card I'd been handed. It looked for all the world like a scene from a war movie,  the bit where the resistance operator is frantically sending a final message home just before the Gestapo burst in and spray the room with automatic gunfire.

As it was I just has a pass slip through the post two weeks later :-[

73, Mark...

 

[gm5bkc]

That certainly sounds surreal, Mark !! 
And getting the pass notice in the mail is _almost_ a let-down after the test setting, but not quite
I guess we've all seen too many WW2 movies, ha..

Glenn AE0Q

 

[Ham4CW]

I guess we've all seen too many WW2 movies, ha..

Seen them? I LIVED it that day hi )

Mark...

 

[Mickey Morse]

I got my Novice license (in the US) in the 1970s by taking a 5wpm sending and receiving test and simple written test at my local ham club, no FCC office involved.  I was about 12yo and the club had lots of members around my age or a little older.  IIRC Novice licenses were not renewable, so when mine was about to expire I upgraded it to Technician by taking another written test, the same test used for the General class license, but only 5wpm code which I already had credit for.  General required a 13wpm code test and I was able to copy maybe 10 wpm and exams were given 1x a month iirc, so I figured to get up to 13wpm I would have had to wait a month and then my license would have actually lapsed.  I was never into CW in that era (for some reason I was primarily interested in VHF and UHF, though never active on them).  My Tech license eventually expired when I forgot when it was time to renew.  I'm in the process of reactivating it now and have taken a new interest in CW, so I found my way to this forum since I'm shopping for a decent not-too-expensive key.

My early keys were from Radio Shack (electronics chain store here).  They had a basic one (the one morseexpress.com now sells for $12.50 as the Ameco K-1, I believe) for $1.29, a combination setup with the basic key and a practice buzzer for around $4, and a fancy all brass one (Ameco K-4 which I suspect is the same as JJ-38) for about $5.  I got the one with the buzzer and was able to get up to 5wpm with it, starting from knowing just a few letters.  I think I did later get the K4 key but this stuff all eventually was lost through various moves etc.  My club's code classes used Instructograph paper tape practice machines, that were made all the way through the 1980s:

http://technitoys.com/instructograph-morse-code-training-device/

They also used those for giving examinations.  The Instructograph would be a good topic for a post or thread on this site, and it wouldn't surprise me if some of you own them or even collect them.

My club had a Vibroplex bug in its main station and I remember playing with it and being awed by its mechanical precision, but I never went on the air with it.  I suspect they were popular here because there were a lot of them around, so everyone got to see them, and once you saw one it was impossible not to want one for yourself.  I feel the temptation even today, though I'm far more likely to end up with a paddle keyer.  For now I'm only interested in using a straight key.  Back in the 1970s the club had a few CW enthusiasts who used the Vibroplex but most everyone else used straight keys.

As for spending a lot: I'm just surprised how hard it is to find cheap keys now.  The lowest cost one that I could find was the J-1 (if still available) at around $15.  Then there are the C.W. Morse 3d-printed keys starting in the $20s.  I remember sometime in the 1980s or 1990s I saw what I've now identified as an RAF "D" key in an electronic surplus store for about $5 and I bought it even though I was no longer active in radio, because I thought it was beautiful.  I lost it many years ago, and now I find they are $75+ on ebay!  I could imagine buying one for that much, since I liked it and to make up for the lost one.  I don't know if they are considered such good keys around here though (anyone use one?).

It does seem to me that good keys hold their value pretty well, so if I bought even a fairly expensive one, I could resell it later and get back most of what I paid.  So the lower end Begali straight keys (around $150) are in a price range I could tolerate.  I think I wouldn't want such a big heavy key though.  I may ask for Begali advice on this forum sometime.

For keyer paddles, I love the designs I've seen for single paddles made from a hacksaw blade, so I might try that for myself.  Part of what got me interested was the idea of making my own keyer from a Raspberry Pi Pico (I'm not that great with hardware, but I'm a good programmer).  I think lots of people have already made Arduino-based keyers though, so a Pico-based one wouldn't add much.  If I get a commercially made paddle I'd probably start with C.W. Morse.  Paddles don't have anything like the historical fascination and sense of tradition for me that straight keys do.  They are just computer peripherals from my perspective, as it were.  A6FL.com makes a very nice one though, in case any of you are shopping.

I hope you don't mind the long post .